Joanna Lafleur has an undergrad in communication and business and a master’s in theological studies focusing on how to use digital communication tools for evangelism and discipleship. Over the last 15 years, she has spoken at churches, conferences, camps, and ministries in North America, Europe, and Asia. She also led the creative communication team at Sanctus, a multi-site church in Ajax. Joanne Lafleur also hosts a podcast for Creatives and Communicators called Word Made Digital and teaches the Bible on a nationally televised Christian talk show called “See Hear Love”, now in its 4th season. She is a proud aunt to 12 nieces and nephews, a board member with InterServe, a songwriter with C4 Worship, and an advisor to the Institute of Evangelism at Wycliffe College.

Joanne help me understand your role as a director of communications in a church setting? 

I typically try to explain it by saying that I get to oversee everything you see and touch in our church at a church-wide level. What I mean by that is signage, images on screens, videos, banners, graphics, branding, printed promotional cards, magazines, interactive elements within a service like booklets or stickers, church-wide emails, social media, photography, etc. By no means do I do all this myself! We have a great team of staff, volunteers, and contractors that work together to get this done week in and week out. Generally, all this is being done under my conviction that the Church has the most important message in the world, so I’m trying to help us be the best communicators we can be of that message, in our ever-changing, highly digital culture.

Talk to me about your TV show, blog, and your podcast. What is the ultimate goal of these shows? 

In general, wherever I’m communicating and over whatever medium, my prayer is that I actually help real people. On the TV show, my desire is to communicate the Bible and who Jesus is in a joyful, practical, and accessible way that might encourage viewers who are going through all kinds of struggles of their own and need the hope of Christ. In my writing, I’m trying to provide practical help for real communications problems that people working in churches wrestle through every day, often with much less resource than we have in a larger church. On the podcast, I’m trying to help creatives and communicators see their work differently while getting an inside look at some of the voices in the field that inspire them.

You are also a pastor in a role held by men since the beginning of time. Explain the highs, lows and the challenges of being taken seriously? 

That’s a big question! We could spend a long time talking about this, so I want to, first of all, recognize that it’s a big topic, and full of lots of emotions and opinions for people. That said, generally, I don’t want to make gender a big thing in the spheres where I lead. I don’t label myself as a “woman leader” when I walk into a room. I am simply, a leader. I’m not sure I’ve ever had an issue with being “taken seriously”, because I try to walk in the confidence of my calling.

Whether man or woman, you are taken seriously by leading well. Getting an education. Backing up the talk with action. Increasing your emotional intelligence. Loving the people, you serve. Becoming better at what you do by being teachable. Living with integrity publicly and privately. That brings lots of challenges, but I’m not sure they are uniquely female.

I would say the particularly female challenge for many, and it was for me, was coming to terms theologically with what I understood was the calling of God on my life to lead. It wasn’t just should I go in this direction, but actually, is this in obedience and alignment with scripture? I don’t think men ask that question when stepping into leadership, and for me growing up with very few models of women in leadership, it was a wrestle initially to come to understand the amazing opportunities there are for women to lead or pastor. Now, I hope the generation coming up after me has many amazing examples of men and women to follow after as mentors and models of leadership.

You are like me, you grew up in a couple of different countries and like to travel. What has all those experiences taught you as a person? 

The biggest thing for me, beyond a desperate desire to travel every month, is that there are lots of ways to do things, and just because something is different doesn’t make it wrong. There are many ways to get to a similar goal: making a meal, raising children, leading a country, worshipping Jesus… all can have a few approaches with pros and cons to them, and we are more the same than we are different as humanity. I hope it’s made me be a more open-minded person to new ideas, people, and foods.

In life, we all go through challenges. Give me an example of something you have been through and how you are dealing with it? 

A current challenge I’m going through is learning to grieve well. I’ve experienced a lot of deaths in my family in the past year, and my father who has Parkinson’s and dementia has really taken a turn for the worse in 2019. It’s a strange thing to grieve someone who is still alive, yet each month we lose more and more of who we knew him to be, so it is prolonged grief. I’m learning that I’m stronger than I thought I was. I’m learning to be gentle to myself. I’m learning what it looks like to serve someone who once served me. I’m drinking lots of coffee, praying lots for endurance, and trying to keep a great sense of humour about it all.

As a Millennial what are some of the challenges your generation is facing? 

The biggest one that comes to mind, is that a lot of experts talk about this as a “fatherless” generation. A lot of the struggles for identity, purpose, career and education pursuits, financial stability, and more seem to stem from so many people lacking a solid father figure to guide them and love them in a consistent way. This is not my own personal story, but absent or just unavailable dads is a major marker of this generation. It leaves an amazing opportunity in the church for men to rise up and disciple a few younger people around them, caring for them with the love and wisdom of a father.

I have known you for a decade. Any advice you would give to your younger self? 

I’d probably tell her to treat everyone with more kindness than she thinks they deserve, including kindness towards herself. And to buy as much Toronto real estate as possible before the prices went nuts

Rapid Fire questions

Favorite restaurant in TO

Depends on the occasion, but I love “La Carnita” on John St for out of this world tacos. And a little Italian place in Leslieville called “Frankie’s” that changes its fresh pasta menu every week.

Favorite café

Boxcar Social. Best coffee in the city (IMO).

Steak with which wine

Steak- medium-rare. Wine- I’m not an expert. When out, I usually just do the house red or a Cabernet Sauvignon.

Favorite beer

Jelly King, from Bellwoods Brewery. It’s a local sour beer from Toronto.

Favorite author

C.S. Lewis. A brilliant mind, and a life-long influence on my understanding of God. From a childhood in Narnia, to adolescence in his apologetics, to a seminary student taking a course on his evangelism style, to an adult finding comfort in a Grief Observed.

Favorite city

Toronto! And then: Marseille France, Amsterdam Netherlands, San Diego USA, Istanbul Turkey.

Name of one famous you want to have a meal with?

Famous people don’t appeal to me much. I’d rather have dinner with current friends or my grandparents who died before I met them.

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David Adams is the lead pastor, planning and implementation at Sanctus Church. David did his Undergrad in Commerce and Economics from the University of Toronto and has a Master of Theological Studies from the Tyndale Seminary. Being called into ministry after operating in the business world, Dave joined the Pastoral Lead Team in 2008. He is responsible for the implementation of everything that moves Sanctus towards a shared vision. Dave is a husband to his wife Jen and together they have four married kids and five grandchildren. When not in ministry, you can find Dave on the golf course or soccer fields, like a true Irishman.

A few years ago, Dave challenged me to move from success to significance. He made me think about what my legacy would be.

As Dave heads to become the Senior Pastor of StoneRidge Fellowship in Nova Scotia, I ask him about the importance of moving from success to significance.

Dave tell us a little about you?

I’ve been married to my best friend for over 37 years now and enjoy doing life with her more than anyone. We love to travel together, especially to East Africa. I’m a bit of a sports nut when it comes to being a weekend warrior. I love to play soccer with the young guys to show them that it’s still a thinking game. I try to play golf as much as I can and when I travel, I try to squeeze in a round. I have 4 great married kids and 3 grandkids who I adore. I should have started with the grandkids, they’re way more fun.

What made you decide to leave the corporate world?

I loved the corporate world. I got to spend some awesome years working with really talented, smart people. The experiences that I had in the corporate world have helped make me a better pastor. In 1993 I was quickly climbing the corporate ladder. I had just turned down a huge opportunity at one of Canada’s major banks but was involved in a small but fast-growing software development firm. In the middle of all that, while I was reading my Bible, something I did almost every day, I felt like God really spoke to me. Not audibly, but some of the verses I was reading seemed like they jumped off the page. I believed that Jesus was asking me to make a significant shift in my life, to follow him in ways I’d never fully done before. One of those ways was to dedicate my vocational life to helping others by becoming a pastor.

What does an executive pastor do?

Actually Gerry, my title is Lead Pastor. I started at Sanctus as the Executive Pastor or XP for short. At Sanctus we operate based on Prompting and Planning. We firmly believe that God “prompts” us as an organization to do some specific things beyond common faithfulness. Once we agree on what those promptings are, my job is to make it happen. I’m the planning side of prompting and planning.

How important are a strong governance structure and an amazing board?

Irreplaceable. Without a strong board, things get bogged down in personality struggles, conflicts, and bottlenecks. At Sanctus we have a great board and a great board process. From a high level, the board is mainly concerned with “Why” and “What” while the staff focus on “How”. I also need to say that we all work really hard at keeping relationships healthy at the board level. It’s critical that we know and care about each other.

Walk me through your journey in your faith and what have you learned along the way?

Oh my gosh, how many pages do you want me to write ha-ha? I was born into a family that had faith only by association with the Christian religion. We didn’t practice anything related to our so-called faith. When I was 11 or 12 and still living in Northern Ireland, I went to a junior high weekend retreat put on by some people who loved Jesus and junior high students. I went on that retreat and it changed my life. I remember hearing for the first time the good news of what Jesus did for me and the free gift of salvation offered by God for everyone. Since then life has been full of ups and downs, some really high and some clinically low. But my faith in Jesus has never wavered, he changed my life.

Men have a tough time from the mid-40s to mid-50s. You have come out with flying colors through it. Tell us some of the challenges and victories?

Great question. Most guys spend the vast majority of their time trying to be successful, whatever that means to them. For most its about money, sex, and power. What happens to a lot of guys who take the time to think, ponder, read and listen, is they start to make a shift from success to significance. They start thinking about legacy more than prosperity. They begin to value a relationship with the spouse, kids, grandkids, friends more than money. By the time you hit your 50’s you realize you’re more than half done your life and I think a lot of guys feel like their coming up short. 

You take two weeks of your own vacation time and serve in Uganda. Tell us a little about it and why do you do it?

In 2007 my wife and I spent 4 months in East Africa that was life-changing. We fell in love with the place and the people. But as we hung out in church every week, we began to notice that there was a leadership void. Great people were trying the best they could but often they didn’t have the resources (money, education, skills, experience) to lead effectively. I knew we could do something about it. In addition, there are tons of kids who live on the streets because they’ve been orphaned by HIV/AIDS or they’ve been abused or a thousand other reasons. We knew we could do something about that too. But when we got to the point where we both felt we HAD to do something about it, we knew we were in for a wild ride. So, we looked for a great organization to partner with and found International Teams Canada and got involved in their Impact Uganda Program.

What is your favorite vegetable with a nice steak, fries and a glass of red wine?

Fries IS the vegetable with the steak. I have a great dislike, even hatred of veggies. I try to pull it off as a life-threatening allergy but most people just look at me funny. 

Why is grace, redemption and forgiveness important in your faith? 

Just think about the words. Grace, getting something that I never deserved. God’s unmerited favor to me. Redemption, I have been bought out of spiritual slavery at a great price. One that I could never have afforded but Jesus paid it on my behalf. Forgiveness, everything that I’ve ever done that falls short of God’s perfect, the holy standard has been forgiven. The penalty that should have been mine for falling so far short has been paid by Jesus. These things are so wonderful to think about and only attainable through faith in Jesus.

You are a husband, son, father and grandfather. Give some advice to us young men out there who are just beginning to navigate those roles?

We live in a child-centric culture. Make sure to always cultivate your relationship with your wife. Long after the kids are gone, even after a victory lap back at home again, there’ll just be you and her. Make sure you’re still friends and still in love. But that only happens if you stay connected throughout the journey. Second, don’t get sucked into consumerism. It can happen with stuff but it can also happen with relationships. Don’t like the one you have? Toss it/her in the garbage and get a newer model. That kind of thinking and that way of life only leads to heartache for you and a whole bunch of other people. Third, try to laugh every day. Ok well at least try to smile, it won’t kill you.

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The life of a pastor’s wife is not easy. There is this expectation that she has to be perfect, together, perfect family, perfect marriage, perfect children. Unrealistic expectations can freeze someone.

The next time you run into the wife of a pastor, minister, or evangelist, remember she is human, fragile, broken, and hurting. She knows she is being watched. She can also be lonely. Reach out to her and give her a big hug and just love her.

The role of the pastor’s wife has changed as time has passed. It is not about just playing the piano on Sundays or making sure the coffee meetings are taken care of. They are modern managers who have to multitask and meet the demands of the congregation. They are the quarterback of the team.

I catch up with Carrie Pankratz, who blogs about being the wife of a minister. She is real, vulnerable, and funny. This interview is a tribute to all the women all over the world who serve as the wives of a pastor, minister, or evangelist. My hats off to you.

Carrie, I have never interviewed a pastor’s wife. So, let’s get real and talk. I want to know something important about you?

Thank you so much for taking the time to get to know me.

Growing up, I had always wanted to be a wife and a mom. I got married just before I turned 27, which was pretty old in my circle of friends. Before I got married, I worked with children with disabilities, worked at a preschool, and served as a youth worker in my church. I loved pouring into the lives of others.

I have now been married for 17 years to my best friend, who happens to be a pastor. It’s funny that the qualities that made me fall in love with him are also the same qualities that sometimes make me frustrated now. He is the most selfless and generous person I know. When we were dating, friends would always come to him for help. He would drop everything to go work on someone’s car or help them move. That was extremely attractive to me. I love his servant’s heart. But now, in my selfishness, I am sometimes jealous of his time. I have my moments where I don’t want to share him.

He wasn’t planning on becoming a pastor. He was attending a very academic Seminary to get his Ph.D. and teach Christianity at a secular university. I thought I was going to be a professor’s wife. God changed his heart one day when a woman at a nursing home said these words to him.  “If Christians knew how lonely we were, they would come to visit us more often,” That one sentence broke his heart and changed the direction of our life.

God calls us to care for the widow and the orphan. This woman was a widow, and she was also blind. God brought her into our lives to help us see. She reminded us of what is essential. That was when my husband knew that his calling was to be a pastor; to care for the poor, help the needy, and ultimately introduce people to Jesus.

In our first five years of marriage, he was an associate pastor at a pretty large church. There were not many expectations placed on me, which was good because I was trying to figure out how to be a wife. My parents divorced when I was ten, and I didn’t have a great example of what a healthy marriage looked like at the time. Both of my parents eventually remarried, but I wasn’t super receptive to the new relationships in my teenage years.  In adulthood, I have come to treasure the relationships I have with my step-parents.

How has the role of the wife of a pastor changed over the years?

I became a Christian at twenty-one and had a wonderful pastor’s wife befriend me and mentor me. She is everything I imagined the stereotypical pastor’s wife should be. She was quiet, gentle, dressed very modestly, and involved in many church areas. I never heard her complain. She seemed like the perfect Proverbs 31 woman.  I was pretty naive back then and am sure she would laugh at me describing her that way, but she was lovely. She seemed to have it all together. I think that used to be the expectation of a pastor’s wife, and to some extent, it still is. A pastor’s wife should have it all together in both their faith and in their family. I definitely don’t.

People have unrealistic expectations of the pastor and his wife. No pressure.. talk to me about that and how you deal with it?

Well, this is a tricky one. I have been very blessed to serve a congregation that allows me to be myself, yet I still feel the expectations I described above. Honestly, I think I may put them on myself.

I often feel like I do not measure up to the role of the pastor’s wife. I’m not a perfect wife or mother. The number of mistakes I make is laughable. I don’t always dress beautifully, nor do I play the piano. (I don’t know why, but I feel like pastor’s wives should be able to do that) If I could live in yoga pants, I would. Sometimes it takes everything to get me up and ready for church in jeans and a hoodie. I get frustrated with people and feel resentment at times. I am incredibly aware of my sinfulness. I would love to be that Proverbs 31 woman, but God is still working in me.

I sometimes struggle to find where I, Carrie, fit in the church since I spend so much time filling in gaps that need filling. My husband has an evident calling of pastor and teacher. My role continues to change. I think I have served in just about every ministry of the church. I do it because I want to help, and I love the people in this church like family. Sometimes, just like with family, this causes resentment when I feel like I’m doing all the work. Like Mary and Martha in the bible, I can fall into the trap of focusing on the serving and forgetting to sit at Jesus’ feet and enjoy Him. The minute I take my eyes off of Jesus and His plans for His church, I make myself miserable.

At times I have felt judged because I am not at every event or if my kids are running around the church. I have two extremely active and energetic boys who have grown up with our church as a second home. I have tried my best to help them love the time we spend there. When nobody is there, it turns into their playground. They are making great memories, but not everyone is okay with that. I am not a perfect mother.

It has helped that I have friends who are also the pastor’s wives and feel the same. These are women that I adore and are there for me. They are not perfect either, but they are there for support and encouragement. I want to be that for others as well. Any pastor’s wives out there who may be struggling, please reach out. I’d love to encourage you.

How has motherhood and marriage changed you? I mean you are married to the perfect guy…

Marriage has changed me in so many ways. It has helped me realize how selfish and scheduled I was. It’s funny. I thought I was really easy going and flexible. It turns out that I was only that way when I was in complete control over what I was doing. Throw another person in the mix and I’m a mess. Marriage also helped me understand a different kind of love. My husband knows me better than any other human at this point. He sees me at my best and at my worst. It is in those moments of my worst when he shows me grace after I’ve been a complete jerk, that I truly understand love. It feels safe.  It’s a much smaller version of what we see in God’s love, only God knows the ugliness of my heart and still loves and accepts me. I also feel like I am better with him. He pushes me to become the best version of myself… just by how he lives his life. He’s not perfect, but he really is perfect for me. I feel blessed to be on this journey with him for sure.

Motherhood has probably brought about the most change. The amount of love that you can have in your heart for your children is pretty overwhelming. My momma bear comes out easily if anyone has hurt them or I think there is a chance that someone could. Watch out! lol

Parenting is all a big learning process filled with mistakes. I have had to apologize so many times since becoming a mom. I also have an entirely new and deeper understanding of God’s grace. No matter what my kids do, I will always love them. I want what is best for them regardless of whether or not they deserve it. I am willing to give up more for them than I ever imagined I would. If an imperfect person like me can love and forgive that much, imagine a perfect God.

I also found parenting to be more difficult than I envisioned. As someone who wanted to be a wife and mom for as long as I can remember, I struggled a lot. Especially in the baby and toddler phase. I didn’t enjoy every moment, and then I felt guilty about that. I was supposed to be really good at this. I was an infant-toddler teacher before I had kids, but parenting was so much harder. Sleep deprivation and completely losing my identity really had an effect on me. I may even have had some depression as I look back. I wish I would have talked to my doctor about it. I do, however, love the stage that we are in now. I fear that it is going to go by too fast… unlike the toddler phase that felt like it took forever!

I like your article on the difference between cliques and close friendships. Talk a little more about that?

One thing I really struggle with as a pastor’s wife is finding people I can trust and be “not okay” around. That kind of friendship takes time. I have a couple of those friends in my life right now. I also have a small group at church that I am involved in. We meet for bible study, share our struggles, and pray for each other. They check on me and hold me accountable. I think everyone needs those types of people. We can’t be best friends with everyone we meet. Sometimes people see groups of friends who have known each other for a while and call them cliques. I don’t believe they are. Cliques are groups of people who don’t let other people in. Those are not okay in the church. We want everyone to feel loved and included. I think there is a time, though, for meeting with only people you feel safe with. We all need to find a group like that.

We were born and meant to connect. I like how you differentiate between extroverts and introverts. How does that look like in a church setting?

The main difference between extroverts and introverts is that extroverts get energy from being around others while introverts recharge alone. When it comes to church, this is something I am still trying to figure out. I am an outgoing introvert. I need my downtime, or I start to go crazy, yet to others, I appear to be an extrovert. I like people, but sometimes get awkward in groups. I am much more comfortable in an intimate setting with just one or two people. Sometimes at church, the shy introverts can get missed because they don’t feel comfortable showing up to a women’s group or even reaching out when they have needs. Hanging out in big groups all the time is exhausting. I think it is important for people in the church to invite others into their homes. To get to know them in a smaller, more personal sort of setting. Some of my favorite people seem to be much different than me at first, but when I take the time to get to know them in this way, outside of a big group, I find that we have very much in common.

Walk me through the city you live in, the people, the culture, the food, and the restaurants?

I live in a suburb north of Salt Lake City in Utah. Most of the people who live here are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Some would call them Mormon, but that is no longer a preferred term by members). It is a lovely, family-friendly place to live. Our neighbors are wonderful. Coming from Southern California, it is a completely different culture. I appreciate the small-town feel, yet it is very close to the city which is filled with fun restaurants and culture. I love it here. Even though we are not part of the predominant religion, we have, for the most part, been accepted by others.

How do you manage finances on a minister’s salary?

We have always lived pretty frugally. Although we are not “rolling in dough”, we have always had enough. In times of need, everything was provided by the generosity of others. Honestly, I feel that we have been greatly blessed. We lived on one income for many years and were able to get out of debt except for our mortgage. Our cars are old, but they are paid off and get us where we need to go. When I started working, we put a good portion of that into savings. Going back to work has provided some much-needed vacations for our family. I had no idea how much we needed that time until we experienced it.

I am sure it is tough to maintain boundaries and have ‘time’ for self-care. Walk me through your process?

This is a constant struggle for me and I need to be better. I love to read my Bible in the morning and listen to podcasts on my drive to work.  This doesn’t happen every day, but it is happening more regularly than it did while I was teaching. Recently I started a “time budget” to try my best to devote time to the things that are important to me.  I have become very protective of our family time because my husband has a job where unpredictable things happen. Many family dinners are interrupted by emergency phone calls. He will leave to counsel someone or head out to a hospital to pray. I don’t get mad about those things because it is why we are doing what we are doing. But, it can be frustrating.

Spending more time with my kids and husband since I quit teaching has actually been the best self-care for me. I feel like myself again and am doing what I love. Friday nights are our family nights where we eat pizza and watch a movie together. It is a tradition that my kids love, and it is easy for us since we are usually pretty tired by Friday night. Other than that, my self-care has been pretty non-existent since the pandemic started.

Before COVID, my husband and I participated in an exercise boot camp together every morning, but we stopped in March and haven’t resumed again due to the cost. I am really feeling the impact it is having on my physical and mental health. My day is better when I begin with a workout. It is also something that my husband and I were doing together. I love that. He makes things more fun. We would laugh a lot and make up our own silly exercises.

One new thing that feels like self-care, but I’m not sure if it counts, is writing my blog. For the first time in years, I have an outlet for my thoughts. I love it and it is really filling me. I just need to make sure I don’t let it take away from my family. Our time is so limited.

I want some practical advice on how we can use peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, compassion, hospitality, charity, unconditional love, and forgiveness in our lives?

I have always been a rule follower. So, for me, religion made sense. I could follow the rules and then God would give me what I deserved. I thought I was a really good person because I was a “good deed doer” The problem was that I would look down on others who didn’t fit my perception of “good”. I viewed peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, compassion, hospitality, charity, unconditional love, and forgiveness as more things I needed to do to check off the list. I did good things, but in my heart, I thought I was better than everyone else and I felt like God owed me something.

It wasn’t until I started to realize how ugly my heart actually was that I actually became a Christian and began to exhibit those qualities in my life. Once I realized how much I needed those things to be shown to me and then understood that Jesus gives me all of that… even when I don’t deserve it. He shows me compassion when I am at my worst. He forgave me even when I turned away from Him. He shows me kindness when I am kicking and screaming like a toddler. Wow. That was huge for me.  It broke me, but it the best way possible. Then… those things naturally started to flow out of me to others.

I think the way we practically use these things in our lives is to recognize that we are not perfect. It’s much easier to love others when we are filled with God’s love. We can choose to see others the way God sees them, and love them accordingly.

Finally, if I come to your church can I invite myself for a nice meal at your home or at any member’s home?

I would love to have you and your family over to my home for a meal! It might be a rotisserie chicken from Costco turned into street tacos, but I would love to get to know you more. That is the important part. And while I can’t speak for everyone in my church, the people that God has allowed my husband and me to serve here in Utah are some of the most loving, generous, and accepting people I have ever met. I know that you would be welcomed with open arms, offered a place for your family to stay, and a delicious meal. Probably much better than the meal you will receive at my house. lol.

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